Hitting 2M Downloads Without Funding, Employees, or Learning to Code — Ania Wysocka, Rootd

David Barnard:

Welcome to the Sub Club Podcast, a show dedicated to the best practices for building and growing app businesses. We sit down with the entrepreneurs, investors, and builders behind the most successful apps in the world to learn from their successes and failures. Sub Club is brought to you by Revenue Cat. Thousands of the world's best apps trust Revenue Cat to power in-app purchases, manage customers, and grow revenue across iOS, Android, and the web. You can learn more at revenuecat.com. Let's get into the show.

Hello, I'm your host, David Bernard, and my guest today is Ania Wysocka, founder of Rooted, an app that helps people overcome panic attacks. Ania bootstrapped rooted from idea to over 2 million downloads without learning to code or hiring a single employee. On the podcast I talk with Ania about the one small tweak that increased revenue five X, growing an app organically and how hiring an ASO consultant actually tanked downloads.

Hey Ania, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Ania Wysocka:

Thanks for having me.

David Barnard:

I've really been looking forward to talking to you since we met in person last year at MAU, it's really cool how you found something that scratched your own itch and really turned it into a business. So why don't you tell us a little bit about the founding of Rooted and why you built the app?

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah, so I do like to say it's like I approached it with a non MBA. I didn't do any user research really, or surveys to understand the market, it really was a response to my own need. I was in my final year of school when I experienced a panic attack and I had no idea what they were beforehand. I thought that panic attacks were people that were just really stressed out or what they experienced, and I just couldn't believe how actually terrifying it was. And so I thought, this can't be a panic attack, this is way worse than a panic attack can be. Turns out, it is a panic attack. They are terrifying. I did take to the app store to look to see if there's something there that could help, but the apps that existed at the time under those keywords were things like hypnosis apps or apps that were more medical in nature, nothing that was very warm and comforting and what I really needed to see at the time.

And I was far away from home, I was on student loans, I didn't have a family doctor, I didn't have the resources to see a traditional therapist. So unfortunately it took me a while to get over the panic attacks to manage my anxiety better and get to a better place. And so during that process of healing, I was thinking this is actually the tool that helped. Whenever I came across a new tool that helps and I was thinking, how do I get this all into one tool that I can just keep on me every day? So I'm not taking these heavy textbooks around campus with me, I have this one thing on me at all times. So that's how the idea for Rooted started.

David Barnard:

So how did you go from this app needs to exist? And it's funny because this podcast isn't necessarily targeted at the average person who has an app idea, but I think there are a lot of people in the industry, whether they work in marketing in a bigger app or they're a developer and they've released five different apps and none of them have really stuck. But a lot of people think, oh, this app should exist, and how did you go from this app should exist to then actually launching an app? Especially as a non-technical founder.

Ania Wysocka:

So at first I just started drawing what I thought I needed in my notebooks. So it was pen on paper, very simple stuff, but really with a lot of emphasis on what that user journey should be. And that's something I was more familiar with than coding or programming. And for background, I studied international relations in school. So the elements that probably did help me were things like communication and storytelling, stuff like that. So I was very careful about the language in Rooted and really wanted it to be something simple. When I was looking at other apps, sometimes things can feel really cluttered. So you'll see even today with Rooted, it's very simple user interface, very simple design. So that's what I was drawing in my notebooks.

And then I took that to a agency to get a quote and they quoted me something like 40K, and there was just no way I could afford that. And I was like, holy, I'm going to have to learn so much more if I want to do this. So it took a lot of persistence in the face of not knowing anything about this subject and really researching, watching YouTube videos, learning what wire frames were, learning about different programming languages. Not that I was even wanting to learn it myself, but I just needed to even understand what went into making an app, so that's how it started.

David Barnard:

Yeah, it's funny 'cause a lot of people don't know, and you and I were just talking before the podcast that I am a non-technical founder as well, and that's how I started too, is I actually started learning to program and realized, oh geez, this is going to take a year or two to get good and I need an app out soon. I had borrowed money from family to found my company. So yeah, I ended up finding a contractor. So after you saw that $40,000 bid from an agency just wasn't going to work, what did you do next?

Ania Wysocka:

So it was quite a setback, I was at the time doing marketing and comms for different startups in town. So I think I was just very vocal about what I wanted to do and I would sort of share with people what I'm really focused on outside of the work I was doing with them. And over time, this student developer came to me and he was like, "Hey, are you still planning on doing that app you mentioned for panic attacks?" And I was like, "Yeah, totally." I was stoked. And he was like, "Oh, I've done all these co-ops and I haven't really done any work for a company that's actually doing good for society or the world. And I feel like that would be more fun for one of my last hurrahs before I go look for full-time work and stuff." That's how we started.

I learned a lot about how to communicate better with developers too, because that's something that was quite foreign to me and just sort of realized where the communication could be improved. When I look back at that first process of how we did it, I was sending jpeg maps of stuff, there was no Figma back then. It was very low tech. But yeah, we did it first in React Native, that was the first language that Rooted was initially programmed in.

David Barnard:

Gotcha. So you launched and started to slowly get traction. How did the team evolve over time? Did you keep working with that student developer for a while or how did that progress?

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah, we worked together until he found a full-time job and I had to learn also how to adapt to that. There wasn't really full-time work at Rooted. In terms of monetizing, I had some paywalls, but it was really hidden. The point was to provide that panic attack relief immediately so we don't have ads. All the paid content was very, again, not obvious. So there wasn't full-time hours either, let alone revenue to pay for full-time hours. So we did work together until he had a different opportunity. And then since then I've been working with various different contractors on the development side here and there. People jump on, contribute what they can, and now as Rooted has grown, there are people who want to stick around a bit more, but I think it's just like with employees, it's not guaranteed that somebody can stay around for forever. The intent is always that you join a company, you're excited by it and you're staying around.

But over the years with Rooted, I mean there's the war in Ukraine, some developers had to leave because of that, during COVID, developers had to leave to focus on health and stuff. So just like with employees, it's been a mix of working with different people. I've been the one constant really.

David Barnard:

I can totally relate. In 15 years running my company, I never ended up hiring a single employee. So I ran the company and saw millions of downloads on the app store and millions of dollars in gross revenue without ever hiring an employee. And I think a lot of people don't realize just how much a determined person can achieve by force of will and hiring as needed on a contracting basis. And I eventually did start partnering with developers. I had a few projects that kind of went sideways where I spent tens of thousands of dollars with contractors and wasn't getting the results. And have you had any experiences like that where you are working with a contractor and you just have to cut them loose and just didn't work out?

Ania Wysocka:

Totally, yeah. So typically I work with individuals versus agencies, but for the watch app, we worked with an agency, it wasn't so terrible, but I just realized later on that with another developer looking at it that it was sort of the lipstick on a pig type coding situation, there's no way to know that as a technical founder. And I found that I was like billed a lot more than the quote in the end, and it just wasn't too pleasant of an experience. So with them that was a bit easier because it was just once that first version was done, we just stop working together. But I also have had a few nightmare contractor stories where they just are telling a different story during the interviews and as you're getting to know each other, and then once you actually jump into work, oh man, I mean one person accidentally sent 20,000 messages to a small group of people, push notifications.

David Barnard:

Oh my gosh.

Ania Wysocka:

Didn't even act apologetic or anything afterwards. It's like this cannot happen. And they were just like, ah. And I was just like, wow, different attitude because I was so obsessed with the user experience that it's important to work with others who also are obsessed with user experience. So yeah, that's one.

David Barnard:

Just kind of the school hard knocks, I've had plenty of those experiences. And if you're a non-technical founder trying to build an app, I know there's a lot of folks who listen to this podcast who are in marketing and maybe think, I could build an app but I don't know how to code, it can work, but there's going to be struggles along the way. Now that you've had over two million downloads and are doing fairly well, have gotten a lot of attention for the app, I imagine you've had some interest from investors. Have you raised any funding? Are you interested in raising funding? And if so, why or why not?

Ania Wysocka:

I think it goes back to just being really obsessed with the problem and the space. And I haven't found that I've done all the experiments that I want to do yet. And thankfully once I started iterating with the paywalls and stuff, we started earning a bit more revenue and then I'm now able to work on these tests and these goals without necessarily getting outside capital. So I think it comes back to A, there's still so much I want to do, I haven't hit a wall yet, which where I think that getting investors' perspectives and different strategies could be really helpful at that time. I'm just not there yet. And on the other hand, the problems that I am experiencing, I'm not sure that throwing money at them will solve them. So as an example, team communication, let's say something's not quite working with the developers and the contractors and the communication, throwing in a more maybe expensive developer into the mix isn't always going to solve the solution, sometimes it's actually removing somebody and fixing internal processes. So that's just sort of how I look at it.

I also had an early conversation with an investor who purchases apps and different small businesses that are distressed, and in hearing him chat about it, he would say, there's founders that think that their problem is the biggest problem in the world, but really it's not at all. And so I buy these businesses and then I'll throw in a solution because it's easy for me to do that. And I was like, wow, I'm so determined not to be that person then. And now that I know how it's... Given your perspective, it could be my problem can actually be a very small problem. And so I really try to look at my problems when they feel big and try to look at them from different perspectives and sort of break it down and think, okay, what do I really need here? Nine times out of 10, the answer just hasn't been straight up capital. It's been other issues that I needed to resolve.

David Barnard:

That's such a great perspective. I think too many folks look at money as a solution and think throwing money at something will fix it or accelerate it, move things faster, you grow faster, all those things. But that's a really great way to think about it, that when you break things down, there's just so many problems that you can solve. And it's really cool to see how resourceful you've been in just solving them through brut force and through force of will. Again, it's pretty incredible that you've gotten to 2 million downloads without outside capital. Starting with a student developer. I know App Store search and ASO has played a big role in getting those downloads. Can you tell me a little bit about how you thought about ASO early on and how you got those kind of early downloads that then started to build that snowball that grew you to where you are today?

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah, so when first starting Rooted, I knew the core button, that red button in the app, the rooter for panic attacks, I knew that, that would probably be one of the most impactful features for users because it was for me too and if my app was going to resonate with folks that I, again, hypothesized without user research, but just based on really being familiar with the problem. So I looked up the keyword panic attack, saw that it was not very competitive, pretty low volume. And then I looked up anxiety on the other hand, and that was more competition, more volume, and I was so tempted to go for anxiety 'cause I'm like, this is also anxiety. And as a founder sometimes you have founder-itis, you think that other people will see what you see in your own company right away, that's not always the case though.

So I did stick with panic attacks and even though the volume was much lower back in the day when people did find Rooted with that keyword, they really got what they were looking for. And so the user reviews that were being left from the very beginning were so incredibly impactful. People were sharing how Rooted is changing their life, and I remember seeing that for the first time being like, wow, this really did speak to others in the way that it did to me. And that was a really cool experience. And that of course helps with ASO, as you know if users have the same experience when they're... From search to being on your product page to downloading and then leaving a review, especially if they're leaving a review with the keywords on your product page, that all really ties into ASO and I think what Apple and Google see in the backend too.

David Barnard:

Did you use a tool for that ASSO research?

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah, at the time, I think it was either Censor Tower or App Figures.

David Barnard:

Yeah, there's so many great tools to do that keyword discovery and it's really insightful. Again, I think a lot of people missed that being a really great fit for a keyword that has less volume can be a lot better than being result 10 for the much higher traffic keyword. Yeah, it's so great that you decided to focus on that more niche, but just such a better fit for the app. Early on, I know you did some experimentation, how did that go experimenting with it?

Ania Wysocka:

It went well in the sense that it helped me figure out which keywords to really focus on. And then at one point I did work with an outside contractor for that, and it was a really bad experience. We went from ranking number two for panic attacks, number three or four for anxiety to then just tanking. And I remember looking at the graphs and I'm like, oh my God, this is the most I've invested into ASO, not doing it myself, and it's just going horribly. And thankfully once the contract ended, we were able to build back up by really reverting to the original. So now Rooted ranks number one for panic attacks, number two or three for anxiety depending on the day, and it just brings in a lot of volume of downloads that way. And yeah, I'm not saying that all outside contracting is bad.

Of course I use contractors and it works really well sometimes, but that was a funny experience because when people don't believe how bad it is, I show them the graph and then they're like, wow, I think I even used it at the conference when we met in one of my slides because it was quite an impactful image.

David Barnard:

Do you remember what they changed that made such a dramatic difference?

Ania Wysocka:

They had started off with Bitcoin keywords and stuff that just wasn't even related, and I think they had some process in mind, but I was just losing downloads by the day, losing revenue by the day. I was like, I can't do it.

David Barnard:

They were probably chasing higher traffic keywords that weren't as good of a fit for your app. Golly.

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah.

David Barnard:

That's crazy that somebody would charge money for such a bad strategy.

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah.

David Barnard:

Wow.

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah, they came recommended though, or at least their website, man it seemed that way. So yeah, lots of thoughts on that.

David Barnard:

Yeah. Related to app store optimization, have you run any Apple search ads? I know anxiety related keywords are probably bit up pretty high by things like Calm and Headspace and other things. Has that been something you've tried and if so, has it been successful?

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah, so some branded keywords as well as panic attack related keywords. And yeah, it has, I have yet to really turn up the volume though in terms of spend, and that's something I'm looking forward to do, I've been focusing a lot on the in-app funnel right now and I'm looking forward to experimenting more with ads. But I did have some folks look at our Apple search ads as well and give suggestions. And there's also those calls that you can do with Apple where they give suggestions. I'm not sure which is more effective, the third party people probably, but we have done a bit of that, but really just maintaining almost like the bare minimum for now, before we sort of turn up that volume of spend.

David Barnard:

You mentioned kind of dialing in the funnel. What are some ways in onboarding and otherwise that you have been able to dial in that funnel?

Ania Wysocka:

So one really easy strategy that now everyone's doing, but this was back in 2020, so it was probably becoming a trend when I saw it. I'm not saying I started it, people way smarter than me were doing this. It's basically putting the paywall near the beginning of the onboarding process. And there's a lot of debate as to which screen it should be in the onboarding process, but mine was just so hidden. I was so worried that people would be turned off by a paywall that they would just react poorly to it. Given that Rooted focuses on panic attacks and anxiety, a paywall in your face might not be great. Turns out though people are so used to seeing it that we got almost no negative feedback on it increased our revenue by five times.

David Barnard:

Wow.

Ania Wysocka:

It was incredible. It went from being something that I could just keep working on by putting in the revenue monthly to then being something where I could really have more contractors, way more of a vision for Rooted too because of that one simple change. So that was really incredible. I'd say that's probably the best example because since then it's been smaller iterations that do affect things, but by way smaller percentage. So things like setting up reminders within the onboarding as well. We find that that's one of the biggest indicators of retention is if somebody sets up a reminder, they're being notified every day to come back to Breathe, Journal, or Visualize with Rooted.

Another thing that sort of want to experiment a bit more with is the oh, push Notifications. That was another one where we now send out daily quotes to folks for the first seven days when they download Rooted. And then after that it is a premium feature, but that's something that's been received very positively as well. So little things like that to really focus on increasing both the download to following through with using Rooted as well as installed to trial and then trial to conversion. Those are the core metrics that we focus on.

David Barnard:

That's such a great story. It's tough, and I've done the same in my apps and they're actually not performing very well right now. I've been more focused on my job than my business these last couple of years. But same thing, it's so many folks... It's almost like you're scared to give people a bad experience. And then especially I think when you're a little more mission driven or really care, it's such bad experience and I don't want to interrupt the mission, the experience that people are getting, but at the end of the day, look at what happened, you five X your revenue and you're able to do so much more for the users who are actually getting value. And so that's an incredible story of one simple change, but taking a big swing and then seeing how it turned out.

I did want to get back to the early growth, I know something you've thought a lot about, and again, something I've thought a lot about as a non-technical, I'm not head down and code all the time, and so I'm just thinking, how can I get attention? How can I get attention? It seems like you very much have that mindset. People need to be aware of your app. So you've done a lot of PR and storytelling and gotten featured by Apple. So tell me about how you think about press and just getting attention broadly for the app.

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah, so I think at the very beginning I knew that without an advertising budget, what I could do is write a great story, tie it back to a specific date, because press really do love having a story that ties back to a world event. So I launched on World Mental Health Day and my strategy there since Rooted, had no background yet, no traction or validation. I sent it to local folks and journalists and typically I think that works almost anywhere you are in the world. Folks really do want to promote their local business stories. So that helped in getting that first few hundred. And then later on, Rooted started making these different lists on Healthline and an article came out in Glamor Magazine and stuff. So then I would basically amp that up and send it to even more press in the States, even in Europe, to get more stories behind it.

And some other examples are with the World Cup, we spoke a lot about how athletes are opening up about experiencing more anxiety and panic attacks, and we launched a visualization for athletes. So that was a story that did quite well. Again, going back to World Mental Health Day, pretty much every October 10th we'll do a big press release and update on what's going on with Rooted.

David Barnard:

That's very cool, I think I saw somewhere you actually have a calendar where you've planned out for an entire year what you're going to talk about every month, tell me about that.

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah, so in December or early January, typically plan out basically for every month of the year what new thing is happening and rooted. So we do one big update per month, and other than that, still smaller updates weekly throughout the year. But that big update, I do try to tell a story about it. So for example, May, today is May 1st, and it is Mental Health Month, internationally. One user request that we got rather frequently is to have the Ruder button, which is that panic attack button for the prompts to play on auto-play so that somebody can close their eyes and listen to these reassuring prompts. Right now you just click next and you listen to the next one. So it's a simple thing, but really it does bring back even more accessibility for the user who might have, sometimes when you're in the middle of the panic attack, you could have blurred vision, you can have trouble even navigating something, even though we try to keep Rooted very simple, it's really important to keep it as simple as possible.

So with this feature, we're able to tell a story about how you can really close your eyes and let the Rooter do its work while you just sit back and relax. And we're going to do an in-app event about it, we're going to do press about it. So that's an example for May. And then we do that all through basically September, because September is when the new iOS updates come out. Then we do want to try to incorporate something from those iOS updates into Rooted for October and November. December is typically holiday focused, and January is New Year focused. So it's really between February to, let's say September that we have these monthly stories that we already know what they'll be every month.

David Barnard:

That's so cool. I think a lot of apps sleep on this, that there are stories that you can tell with your app with new features, with Apple releasing new features. And it's one of those untapped things where if all you're focused on is paid marketing or just... It is hard to get placement these days with press because they're just inundated everybody. But when you tell a good story, people want to help spread that story and it's really cool to see Rooted having gotten covered so much. Is there a particular press placement or some form of attention that you got organically that spiked downloads like crazy and been the best you've ever gotten?

Ania Wysocka:

Not really. It's really by trial and error. Everything moves the dial a little bit, nothing so extreme. Someday on World Mental Health Day, for example, some of those days we'll get a big bump, but then it does quiet down afterwards. So it's really about just keep going, keep doing it over and over again until those bumps become the norm because you're doing it well and you're doing it often.

David Barnard:

Yeah, that's really cool. And then how about getting featured by Apple? I know recently you were selected as the editor [inaudible 00:25:01], have the Apple features been really helpful?

Ania Wysocka:

Totally, yes. So starting out, I had no idea how to get them right. I was just submitting submission after submission after submission, and I would try to connect with other app founders who have been featured, and I just didn't have much luck. And unfortunately I don't have any magic sauce here, I just kept doing the submission, submission, submission until finally one day I heard back, and this was probably 15 submissions later being like, "Hey, prepare some artwork because you might be featured." And that was a huge deal and I was so excited and that sort of how that started. And I'd say they do have a big impact because I'm not doing advertising at this time. So yes, they do have a big impact. We see a lot of increase in browse, installs during those days.

David Barnard:

What's your typical kind of balance? Because I know ASO plays a big role, but now that you've been featured so much, is it a pretty even split between getting your downloads coming from being featured and ASO?

Ania Wysocka:

It depends on the month. It depends what type of feature was going on that month and in what market. So the US is our largest market, and by far, if we're featured in the US, that's quite a significant bump. As a Canadian app, though we're often featured in Canada, which is also great. I think it's a bigger market than most people assume, so it's also awesome here. And then in Europe I find it's maybe less of an impact there. But yeah, I mean there's been some days where Rooted has had so many installs within a few days that for the average for the whole month is that there's more installs by brows than search.

But on the flip side, there's also days where organically Rooted gets a lot of traction, be it from an article or a world event. When the war in Ukraine started, we actually were number seven in all of Ukraine and Russia for weeks at a time. And that was completely organic, no marketing, no features as far as I'm aware, we tried to find out and there's no sign of that. So these bumps do happen both ways, I guess.

David Barnard:

We talked a lot about the app store, but from both the download and then revenue standpoint, what's kind of the split been between iOS and Android?

Ania Wysocka:

Pretty consistent with what others see, I think while there's more downloads on Android, there is more revenue coming from iOS and probably a 75 to 25% split or 70 to 30.

David Barnard:

Wow. Yeah, that's a pretty typical.

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah.

David Barnard:

Have you experimented with lower prices, country by country or anything like that to kind of take advantage of some of those Android downloads?

Ania Wysocka:

I have, believe it or not. I actually got feedback from someone in Brazil saying that my price is too low, so.

David Barnard:

Wow.

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah, definitely experimented and tried all sorts of things. There just seems to be less of an adoption of subscriptions in general, but I think that there is way more that I can do, and I think stepping back and sort of re-looking at pricing every now and then is something that everyone should do and I should do more of it too.

David Barnard:

And as you've gotten your funnel dialed in and you've kind of got this organic loop going. Have you started to experiment or have you experimented the past with paid marketing, or have you just relied solely on the organic traction?

Ania Wysocka:

So I did experiment in the past. I sort of took a risk in working with an agency did quite a bit of advertising for a bit. They were a local agency here in BC, and so they were awesome, but I just think the app wasn't ready, that funnel wasn't there, it was before I had that additional paywall that I mentioned that really helped with conversions. And actually now we're pretty close to being ready to experiment again, I think. I had this list of things I wanted to work on and sort of numbers I wanted to see with the trial conversion before I attempt it again. And one final thing that I'd like to do before we make that investment again is basically remove the need for email authentication because to date it has, but that required quite a big refactoring to remove that need.

So basically seeing what that will do for the funnel as well, because we don't have a high drop-off on the email registration, but there is probably just any other app. So I'd like to see that, get those results for that in-app funnel piece and then I'm thinking early June start advertising.

David Barnard:

Awesome. And it's so cool to go into that from a position of strength with this organic base versus I have to spend 10,000 a month or my app's just not getting any attention at all. So it's great that you kind of built the base first and then now you're kind of see if paid marketing can kind of accelerate that growth.

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah, I did take a loss though, it's normal. I think I just tried it too early and it was a big deal, a big bummer at the time for sure.

David Barnard:

Yeah, totally. One of the things I noticed going through the app is that you do prompt people to share a lot. So right in the onboarding it says, better not doing this alone, share with a friend. And then on the daily quotes, you can share the daily quotes and you kind of find a lot of little ways in the app to incentivize that sharing or at least make it an option. Have you been tracking that and what kind of traction have you gotten from that?

Ania Wysocka:

I am a big believer in also those, yeah, organic referrals. Some of our highest number of referrals actually come from doctors and therapists and folks that share it with folks in their community. So that's been really, really cool. I'd say depending on the page, it performs differently. Probably the biggest share comes after a success page. There's a couple of screens and then you have the option to share Rooted then I think that's really that aha moment when a user has experienced, for example, relief from a panic attack, then they are like, oh my God, I have to share this with so-and-so who I know also struggles with this. So yes, I think that's been a big piece of the growth as well.

David Barnard:

And then that's great because then when you start layering on that paid marketing, if you can make it work, then hopefully you've got a little bit of... You're not just buying one user, you're buying 1.2 users or something, and it's a little bit of growth that's going to accelerate there. One last thing I wanted to touch on as we kind of wrap up is I think it's so cool that you have a little mascot, Ron, who's the little beast. Tell me about the branding and who Ron is.

Ania Wysocka:

Yeah, so Ron is meant to represent anxiety and panic attacks itself. So we talked about panic attacks being something understandably very scary and terrifying. And what Ron does is represent it as something that is scary and uncomfortable at first. But as you go through the app, as you're working on improving yourself, you'll notice that the images of Ron are also getting a bit more smiley and a bit more welcoming and friendly. So you're taking something very scary and making it more friendly. And that's basically based off of cognitive behavioral therapy where you really want to get to know the thing that's scaring you. If there's no fear, there's no fuel. So he represents a lot and users actually personify Ron quite a bit. Some people say that he's their friend, he's there for them at night. Rooted is meant to be a symbiotic tool to other tools like therapy and seeing your doctor, of course, very important.

So Rooted and Ron are there when it's the middle of the night and you can't really call your therapist then you have somebody there and you don't feel alone. So he's been really beloved. And it started off as an illustration in my journal again where I was having a day or I was feeling so frustrated. So those more scarier images of Ron were actually from back then. And then as I started getting better too, I was like, oh, he just looks so cute when he is smiling like this. And I would go into these design holes and create a bunch of different emotions of Ron. And those are reflected, especially in the journaling tool where you can select how you're feeling that day.

David Barnard:

Yeah, it's so cool to have an app where that fits and you could have built this app without a mascot, without a little buddy in the app to help you along your way, but where do you see that going from here?

Ania Wysocka:

I don't know that I could see the app without a little mascot, because even from the very beginning it was like that needs to be an essential part of Rooted. It was just really important to be guided along with somebody because I think one of the worst things about panic attacks, especially back then when they weren't talked about much, is you feel so alone. You feel like you are the worst person ever to be experiencing this, nobody gets you, it's very isolating. So to have any other... It's a self-help app of course, because you're not speaking with a real person there, but to have any sort of representation of a character was critical. It just needed to be in there. But where I see it going right now, I have many users who will write in asking for different ways to interact with Ron.

So one really exciting feature coming up is there's actually going to be this daily mission, which is already in the app, technically you can complete your daily mission to get extra points, and those are really simple things for self-care, like breathing, journaling, doing a really quick visualization. In the future, what it'll be is Ron will be on the homepage and he will have a mood and you'll be able to take care of him, kind of Tamagotchi style.

David Barnard:

Yeah, that's cool.

Ania Wysocka:

But you're obviously taking care of yourself as you're taking care of him. So it's a fun way to get folks to really lean into doing these self-care things for themselves. And then they see this app mascot improving and the idea is really you're improving at the same rate he is during the day. So yeah, that's the most immediate way that I want to allow users to interact with him.

David Barnard:

When do I get to buy a Ron T-shirt or plushie or a little buddy put on my desk?

Ania Wysocka:

Yes, we do have mugs and stickers.

David Barnard:

Oh, cool.

Ania Wysocka:

And pins. And we used to do email marketing. It didn't quite pay off, it was almost more expensive to do email marketing, so we did switch to push notification as a way to stay in touch with users. But yeah, we might have to bring it back. We basically have a Teespring account where you can choose different things that... We have a pillow with Ron, a few fun things.

David Barnard:

Oh, cool.

Ania Wysocka:

A few of my friends have made 3D versions of Ron, but these are unofficial, these are just from my friends on my birthday and stuff. Actually, one past student of mine made this one and I was teaching digital marketing while I was working on Rooted, so he made me that one.

David Barnard:

Yeah, for people who not watching the video shoots holding up little 3D printed Ron, so they're really cool. It's tough to make the kind of physical product thing work, but it's a fun add-on that can potentially be a small source of revenue, but also just a really great way to connect with your customers. And then when they have that little Ron plush or little 3D Ron sitting on their desks, it reminds them to go back into the app. And like you said, it's cool that you're iterating both digitally and potentially physically in the future because it reminds them to take care of themselves and it reminds them to go back to the app. It's like a physical pushing notification, go back to Rooted and take better care of yourself. That's so cool.

Ania Wysocka:

Totally. If anyone has ideas on how to promote stuff like that without email campaigns, let me know. People might already be doing it.

David Barnard:

That's tough. And if you bury it in settings that people just don't find it, yeah getting it seen inside the app is tough. We do need to wrap up, but I'm going to include links to Rooted to the app, to your personal Twitter and LinkedIn. Is there anything else you wanted to share as we wrap up? Are you looking for any new contractors or do you need help with anything that any of our audience could help you with?

Ania Wysocka:

I think maybe just if anybody has anybody in their community that might be struggling with anxiety and panic attacks, letting them know that Rooted is an option. But we also have B2B options for Rooted where we work with health insurers and different veterans groups to provide rooted premium access to those groups. So just wanted to let people know about that.

David Barnard:

That's awesome. We could probably talk another 15 minutes about that, that's pretty cool that you're working on that. All right, Ania, thanks so much for joining me. It was a real pleasure having you on the podcast today.

Ania Wysocka:

Awesome, thanks so much.

David Barnard:

Thanks so much for listening. If you have a minute, please leave a review in your favorite podcast player. You can also stop by chat.subclub.com to join our private community.